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Author Topic: Frost mage Theorycrafting  (Read 427 times)

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Offline Kelta

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Frost mage Theorycrafting
« on: 10/17/16, 07:59 PM »
I was bored as hell on the bus ride home yesterday, and I ended up doing some sims and theorycrafting on Frost mage, since it was one of my top picks for class in beta.
Now they had nerfed the fuck out of this spec right before launch, so I assumed the build I came up for it was dead. Now though, I'm seeing that it might be somewhat competitive, and I wanted to post it here and talk about it with people who aren't as toxic about it as mmo-champ or the wow forums.

So tell me what you think and we can discuss it.

First things first, this build is full mastery. That sounds stupid on paper if you have seen frosts stat weights, but mastery becomes massively valuable in a different talent setup than normal. It's all in the link below.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/9eaa32cc5a44417c9feb73e74c8cb7e7


Now that's the frost sim. I know it's a sim, and it's better than the gear you'll likely have running around right now. But here is the arcane sim to compare to:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/d13b1534eda8448f8a86fb5861a13bf5

As you can see, frost is (on sims) very competitive if you build full mastery still. It's normal build is around the same damage as well, although it'll have significantly less cleave and burst.

Here is fire in the same ilvl gear, but focused on crit:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/6dacd40344d84c00bbeab6eface84628


Now, of course fire is better. But frost isn't that far behind, plus frost would be cleaving for a very very significant amount of this damage. Essentially any fight with a secondary target would see frost catching up rapidly.


I'd like to hear what you guys think of this. Perhaps this is still the way frost should be build, like it was in alpha/beta.
« Last Edit: 10/18/16, 09:04 AM by Kelta »

Offline Minatron

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #1 on: 10/17/16, 10:01 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to do this write-up.  I hope our mages can weigh in.
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Offline Solkanar

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #2 on: 10/18/16, 01:03 PM »
Couple of things. Frost was dog shit before buffs. Flurry is clunky, glacial spike feels clunky. I did a 100-110 level up as each spec on beta. Its better now, but there is a HUGE reason why its simming better then its parsing on WCL. Its not as smooth as fire, its not as fun as fire and doesn't do more damage then fire ( even if its not 100% dogshit anymore )

That and people have already invested HEAVILY into 100% crit gear and putting points into artifact . Why no mages are switching, its still an inferior spec with completely different gear req

Offline Kelta

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #3 on: 10/18/16, 01:13 PM »
Couple of things. Frost was dog shit before buffs. Flurry is clunky, glacial spike feels clunky. I did a 100-110 level up as each spec on beta. Its better now, but there is a HUGE reason why its simming better then its parsing on WCL. Its not as smooth as fire, its not as fun as fire and doesn't do more damage then fire ( even if its not 100% dogshit anymore )

That and people have already invested HEAVILY into 100% crit gear and putting points into artifact . Why no mages are switching, its still an inferior spec with completely different gear req

Yeah I know all this. That's why this is theorycrafting. It's bad in sims because nobody who is good has invested into it. I'm not sitting here saying go frost right now, I'm talking about the theoretical and how strong you think it could be in a real enviroment if you ignore these obvious factors.

Honestly this was the exact post I was hoping to avoid from mmo-champ or wow forums, because I would have taken this into account before I posted.

Offline Solkanar

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #4 on: 10/18/16, 02:29 PM »
Here is the problem with frost and it's always been a problem with frost since the start of wow . It scales like shit . It used to be good on cleave fights early highmaul and early HFC but arcane just outscaled it. Even if there are cleave fights it won't beat the single target Dmg of fire with the cleave from ignite . I guess in theory it could be the unholy dk of mages

Offline Zonty

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #5 on: 10/18/16, 02:55 PM »
Frost was the strongest starting spec last expansion for like a month.
When I show up to raid nights I am there to have fun, not to have a tantrum-prone, know-it-all diva decide to show up on some nights and detract from my enjoyment of raiding.

Offline Stormaker

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #6 on: 10/18/16, 03:24 PM »
How does the cleave and AE stack up next to fire? I don't sim things, but I'd be curious to see a sim with an extended 2 target cleave and/or AE burst. If frost pulls significantly ahead on those, it could potentially be better for several fights.

Offline Solkanar

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #7 on: 10/18/16, 03:40 PM »
The ONLY thing it could POTENTIALLY ( even then I am skeptical ) be better at is a fight with two target cleave the entire fight ( think ogres from Highmaul ) . Emerald Nightmare has not one fight that is like that. I understand people like to theorycraft but not sure the point of a spec that might hypothetically be better in a situation we don't have any of right now.

Zonty yes frost was best in highmaul for about a month until arcane already started outscaling it. Its just not a high end spec , not a fun spec and nothing that is ever going to blow fire away in a fight at the current strength of fire.

Yall can try to prove me wrong, ill volunteer space

Offline Kelta

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #8 on: 10/18/16, 03:45 PM »
Here is the problem with frost and it's always been a problem with frost since the start of wow . It scales like shit . It used to be good on cleave fights early highmaul and early HFC but arcane just outscaled it. Even if there are cleave fights it won't beat the single target Dmg of fire with the cleave from ignite . I guess in theory it could be the unholy dk of mages

Unless they completely revamp the hell out of secondary stat scaling, this will be the opposite this expansion.
Specs that scale well with secondaries and not as well with primary stats will slowly fall, while the rest will catch up.

Plus, with full artifact weapons, it's almost identical to fire in single target. So it would be stronger than fire on two targets, assuming proper gear and setup.

Not only that, but there is a spec that makes frost scale somewhat well now with secondary stats. So it can't be out-scaled like before this expansion.

Edit: Just to add, this wasn't supposed to be like an attack telling you guys to go frost or anything, I was just having some thought exercises and I enjoy trying to find builds and stuff that could be much stronger than most think. The responses from you mages feel like you took it personally. It wasn't.


How does the cleave and AE stack up next to fire? I don't sim things, but I'd be curious to see a sim with an extended 2 target cleave and/or AE burst. If frost pulls significantly ahead on those, it could potentially be better for several fights.

It deals 70~% of it's damage as 80% cleave. Fire doesn't cleave nearly as much (40~%?). Although fire will destroy it past 2 targets.

It's sustained AoE would've been competitive or even better than fire if they hadn't caved in to the crying people with frozen orb. Sadly that was all their AoE so now they don't really have any.
« Last Edit: 10/18/16, 03:50 PM by Kelta »

Offline Solkanar

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Re: Frost mage Theorycrafting
« Reply #9 on: 10/18/16, 09:15 PM »
To give an example, I just did a three target cleave on training dummies and my opening ignite burst alone was 8.44 million ( first 12 seconds ) . Mix in 2.2 million pyros ( that's also a good ignite ) , I just don't see it happening.

Now, that being said, if it does become THE dominant spec then that is what is played. Ive played all three specs many times over the years. PLaying it from 100-110 on beta though was not fun, its just not fun to play. Fire on the other hand is so fun right now its sickening.