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Author Topic: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets  (Read 18736 times)

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Offline EtanMoonstar

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5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« on: 03/07/13, 04:45 PM »
I've been working on these suckers for a bit, and feel reasonably confident with the following results:

First off, if you're lucky enough to have double-upgraded a heroic Bottle of Infinite Stars last raid tier, congrats, one of your bis trinkets is already set (at least until we start seeing heroic thunderforgeds, anyway).

Rune of Reorigination seems likely to be our other bis, although it will greatly mess with your standard reforging priorities (Mut, for example, is going to end up prioritizing haste with the Rune, and then try to balance Mastery and Crit out).

For Combat, thunderforged Talisman of Bloodlust just beats out Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault (by about 150 dps in my current gear) for your other trinket slot. Shado-Pan does barely beat the normal version of the Bloodlust.

For Mut, Shado-Pan actually beats out thunderforged Bad Juju if you're still in Mastery-prioritized reforging (i.e. pre-Rune). Once you go heavy Haste after getting the Rune, the way Haste interacts with RPPM procs makes thunderforged Bad Juju pull ahead.

I'll update this post if anything changes in my calculations/thinking process.
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Offline Radzeal

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #1 on: 03/07/13, 04:59 PM »

Rune of Reorigination seems likely to be our other bis, although it will greatly mess with your standard reforging priorities (Mut, for example, is going to end up prioritizing haste with the Rune, and then try to balance Mastery and Crit out).

I'll update this post if anything changes in my calculations/thinking process.

Everyone's thinking process is off-kilter if they think they're getting Lei Shen trinket before dis bear nigga right here.

edit: in fact, I will literally sell Zeb to Trog's unit for target practice for a thunderforged Rune.

edit2: good on you for doing this shit btw, Fax.
« Last Edit: 03/07/13, 05:01 PM by Radzeal »
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Offline Zebrix

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #2 on: 03/07/13, 06:21 PM »
Quote
edit: in fact, I will literally sell Zeb to Trog's unit for target practice for a thunderforged Rune.
Them trinkets are so good, I ain't even mad bro.

They all rely on RealPPM and as soon as I get one, I replace all Mastery with Haste, change talents and start beasting it up with Primal Elementalist. Parses suggest some outrageous increases over the already high burst that I was doing in T13.

TL;DR: Gonna yank bosses off Rad a lot on pull and die often.

Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #3 on: 03/07/13, 07:02 PM »
The RPPM no longer being affected by Slice and Dice really hurt the new trinkets for rogues, Zeb (which is why last tier's Bottle and the Shado-Pan Valor trinket both stack up so well).

Edit: Y'all are quite welcome (and don't worry, Radz, I'm in no hurry to get the Rune myself since I'm set up so well at the moment).
« Last Edit: 03/07/13, 07:05 PM by EtanMoonstar »
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Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #4 on: 03/07/13, 07:11 PM »
Oh, and it looks like Renataki's is probably utter crap for rogues (which I suspect will make Radz happy).
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Offline Radzeal

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #5 on: 03/07/13, 07:58 PM »
Oh, and it looks like Renataki's is probably utter crap for rogues (which I suspect will make Radz happy).

You can read me like a book, sir.
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Offline Zebrix

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #6 on: 03/07/13, 09:10 PM »
The RPPM no longer being affected by Slice and Dice really hurt the new trinkets for rogues, Zeb (which is why last tier's Bottle and the Shado-Pan Valor trinket both stack up so well).

Haste was basically valued about equal to mastery for me even before all this RPPM stuff, and apparently RPPM gets affected by Flurry just fine so stacking Haste and speccing Primal Elementalist is apparently all the rage in town.

As if that's not big enough of a deal, the new Capacitance Legendary Meta is basically at its most powerful on an Enhance Shaman because the nature damage from it gets affected by our mastery multipliers. Haste + Flurry work on this stuff just as it does on the trinket. I'm probably gonna have to race change to troll now again too, for their racial haste cooldown.

Either way, pretty crazy shit. It's still a ways off till I get those pieces but I'm anxious to see just how high I can burst with Ascendance + Primal Fire Elemental while lusted and potioned.

Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #7 on: 03/11/13, 10:33 AM »
I still wasn't entirely happy about how Rune was being modeled in various calculations, so I went to Simcraft for a simulation approach to testing the various trinkets (which might end up being the only decent way to model Rune). For Mut, the pre-heroic trinkets ended up simming as follows (assuming the retention of double-upgraded Bottle in the other slot):

129043 Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
126904 Thunderforged Bad Juju
126766 Thunderforged Talisman of Bloodlust
126727 Double-upgraded Terror in the Mists
126023 Thunderforged Rune of Reorigination
125205 Thunderforged Renataki's

So while I'm not entirely convinced as to the rank of the Rune yet, the Shado-Pan trinket definitely looks well worth the valor points for us Mut rogues (sorry Doke, Simcraft's interface is way too clunky for me to want to run Combat sims this morning--maybe I'll get around to it when I'm on my home computer).
« Last Edit: 03/12/13, 02:57 PM by EtanMoonstar »
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Offline Zebrix

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #8 on: 03/11/13, 02:52 PM »
The Shado-Pan trinket and Renataki's are the two dead-equal BiS trinkets for Enhancement. Bad Juju is crap but the heroic version comes in 4th behind normal Renataki's and frankly is almost beaten out by the LFR version. For such a haste heavy class, the returns on the way Renataki works ends up so much higher than the upfront buff from Juju.

Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #9 on: 03/11/13, 05:11 PM »
Yeah, Zeb--haste-heavy classes/specs will benefit much more from the RPPM trinkets (one of the reasons I haven't run Combat numbers in Simcraft yet).
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Offline Zebrix

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #10 on: 03/11/13, 06:47 PM »
I'm still so surprised that SnD doesn't work with it. Makes zero sense. They must have coded that thing in a really bass-ackwards way.

Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #11 on: 03/11/13, 11:52 PM »
Quote from: Ghostcrawler
We changed RealPPM to use your true melee haste or spell haste (whichever is higher) to scale the proc rate instead of attack speed or casting speed. The difference is that things that buff your attack speed (such as the raid buff or Slice and Dice) do not increase the frequency of RPPM procs. True haste boosts, such as Bloodlust or haste rating on gear will improve proc rate. We felt this change was necessary to balance proc rates among different specs.

Yeah, nice balancing there, Ol' Crab. Of course, GC's the guy who infamously complained about rogues being "too mathy."
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Offline Zebrix

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #12 on: 03/12/13, 01:03 AM »
Yeah, nice balancing there, Ol' Crab. Of course, GC's the guy who infamously complained about rogues being "too mathy."

Here's the really "unfair" bit for you guys.

This is the Shaman version of Flurry. Notice how it basically gives me a x1.5 multiplier to all the Haste Rating I'm wearing. When I say "Flurry works on RPPM for Enhance Shamans", I don't mean that the melee attack speed increase works for us. I mean that our attack speed ability actually buffs the very stat that changes attack speed, which also happens to directly affect RPPM.

What worries me with this announcement is that someone out there is going to complain about how Shamans benefit from this where other classes don't, and then they're going to slap a nerf on Flurry to remove its affect. We're then going to find ourselves in a position where we're melting Rentaki's trinkets because nobody in the game wants the damn thing. Yay.

Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #13 on: 03/12/13, 01:31 AM »
S'cool, clearly that helps balance proc rates among different specs. =P
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Offline Zebrix

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #14 on: 03/12/13, 03:36 AM »
S'cool, clearly that helps balance proc rates among different specs. =P
I would have bought their argument if they said "It helps us spread the loot between specs that compete for the same stats."

At least would have made sense, considering just how the Agi DPS group is so bloated and trinkets in particular are incredibly incredibly contested every time they drop.

Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #15 on: 03/12/13, 02:49 PM »
Simcraft results for Combat:

108105 Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
106168+ Thunderforged Renataki's (this will go up somewhat with proper reforging of other gear to ditch more Expertise--I was lazy)
106040 Thunderforged Talisman of Bloodlust
105927 Thunderforged Rune of Origination
105778 Thunderforged Bad Juju
105221 Double-upgraded Terror in the Mists

Again, the Shado-Pan trinket is clearly worth the valor points. Renataki's takes a strong second place, just edging Bloodlust.
« Last Edit: 03/12/13, 02:55 PM by EtanMoonstar »
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Offline Radzeal

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #16 on: 03/12/13, 06:59 PM »
Here's the really "unfair" bit for you guys.

This is the Shaman version of Flurry. Notice how it basically gives me a x1.5 multiplier to all the Haste Rating I'm wearing. When I say "Flurry works on RPPM for Enhance Shamans", I don't mean that the melee attack speed increase works for us. I mean that our attack speed ability actually buffs the very stat that changes attack speed, which also happens to directly affect RPPM.

What worries me with this announcement is that someone out there is going to complain about how Shamans benefit from this where other classes don't, and then they're going to slap a nerf on Flurry to remove its affect. We're then going to find ourselves in a position where we're melting Rentaki's trinkets because nobody in the game wants the damn thing. Yay.

The same applies to Guardians and crit. I have like 10% more crit as bear than I do in feral spec as cat.

edit: Also, that's good news for the monks and I as far as distro of the lei shen trinket is concerned.
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Offline Spacejam

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Quote from: 'Blizzard - August 2016'
This time around there won't be a content drought.

Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #18 on: 03/13/13, 10:20 AM »
I spent a bit of time this morning digging through code and models, and it looks like the changes are more to mitigate unlucky streaks of no proccing, not a theoretical buff to the items (i.e. the models were already assuming average proc luckiness given the RPPM); rogues, you should therefore find the relative trinket rankings to be accurate.
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Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #19 on: 03/15/13, 10:23 AM »
Finally found some good math on exactly how to model the RPPM procs; I'll update the trinket ranking later this morning depending on how things change (since haste greatly affects RPPM uptime, I'll be doing the modelling assuming bis normal Thunderforged gear for all the trinkets). If you like math, btw, the formula I'll be using to evaluate RPPM trinkets will be the following:

%TrinketUptime = 1 - e ^ -([RPPM * (1 + Haste) / 60] * ProcDuration)

I'll then use the percentage of trinket uptime to calculate the total average stat values of the trinkets, which then lets us compare and rank them.
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Offline EtanMoonstar

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #20 on: 03/15/13, 02:56 PM »
The only change to my previous rankings using this calculation is that the Renataki's jumped up for Mut to just ahead of the Bad Juju (both were still significantly behind the Shado-Pan valor trinket, and a little bit behind double-upgraded Bottle). My final trinket rankings for pre-heroic Throne, then, are:

Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
double-upgraded heroic Bottle of Stars
thunderforged Bad Juju (Mut) / thunderforged Talisman of Bloodlust (Combat)
thunderforged Renataki's Soul Charm
thunderforged Rune of Reorigination
thunderforged Talisman of Bloodlust (Mut) / thunderforged Bad Juju (Combat)

Cheers, fellow stabbies!
« Last Edit: 03/20/13, 02:32 PM by EtanMoonstar »
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Offline Zonty

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #21 on: 03/15/13, 05:21 PM »
Who...........

Are you talking to?
When I show up to raid nights I am there to have fun, not to have a tantrum-prone, know-it-all diva decide to show up on some nights and detract from my enjoyment of raiding.

Offline Radzeal

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #22 on: 03/15/13, 05:28 PM »
There are actually 2 rogues aside from him actively raiding at the moment. The forever-rubberbanding rogue numbers continue to...do that.
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Offline Zonty

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #23 on: 03/15/13, 05:40 PM »
Radz what's your goal as far as trinkets this tier
When I show up to raid nights I am there to have fun, not to have a tantrum-prone, know-it-all diva decide to show up on some nights and detract from my enjoyment of raiding.

Offline Radzeal

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Re: 5.2 Rogue Trinkets
« Reply #24 on: 03/15/13, 06:01 PM »
jin-rokh and lei shen. Nothing else matters.
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