The War Council

Blogs => Madzeal's Corner => Topic started by: Radzeal on 05/10/13, 06:55 PM

Title: It's been a long time
Post by: Radzeal on 05/10/13, 06:55 PM
since I've written something here, mostly because the website keeps taking a shit and we kept losing blogs. Also because we tend to just talk with each other constantly week in and out week, so few things beyond strategy and logistical issues require forums to discuss. Having said that, I found myself in a funny position the past 2 weeks where I had to make a decision that somewhat adversely affected the raid, and I wanted to maybe talk about it a little bit.

After a great deal of prep over the past few months on my part, as well as a greater deal of research since we started T15 Heroic 25s, I ended up bringing my shitty warrior in to tank for the main raid. The only other time I felt compelled to do this was for H25 Spine, the only other instance (little i) in which my chosen class/spec was far less equipped to handle encounter mechanics and we didn't have a markedly better option available. Typically this isn't an issue, as tank balancing has on the whole been very well executed since Mists hit; however, as more and more people are coming to realize, this apparent level of balance applies more toward normals and 10 man heroic-level damage intake, not 25 mans, and brings up an interesting discussion on the simple nature of absorb/reduction mechanics and how they impact raiding at our level and beyond.

My experience last week was revelatory; at the start of last week's raid I was sub-500i, and noticed almost zero damage intake difference between Water and my bear, aside from being slightly less able to charge into massive trash packs and survive while the healers caught up for a bit. The latter has more to do with the way warriors work relative to bears (and my gear level at the time) than anything I was doing wrong, but it was the former fact that obviously surprised me. Shield tanks have always taken consistently lower damage than the other options, with bears filling the "meatshield stam stacking" paradigm for quite a while and then segueing into the "rng lol maybe dodge maybe gib"-style that so disheartened me as we moved into the tank gib heroic fights in Throne of Thunder. I have enjoyed thoroughly the 5.0 tank mechanics for bears because it gives me incredible control over my own survivability due to the interaction of RNG-based avoidance, relatively high passive damage reduction, and an on-demand heal at the expense of less RNG-based avoidance buff uptime... right up until it started adversely affecting our limited raiding time and drove me nuts trying to figure out what I was doing wrong.

It turns out the answer was already laid out for me over a month ago, I just didn't stumble on it until recently. This is a quote from Midwinter's offtank from an MMO-Champion thread on this topic (and others), and one of the guys participating in the Midwinter AMA on reddit a little while back:

Quote
I'm the one who posted that statement. Let me expand a bit. (For the record, my druid was actually ~15 ilvls higher and I was willing to take a significantly undergeared monk into a progression raid than a fully geared guardian.)

All tanks feel balanced around one thing and one thing only: a patchwerk boss that hits for a stream of autoattacks worth under 20% of your hp total with no special abilities. Druids perform admirably in this situation, but that is hardly a standard raid scenario.

Lets bring up an example that "feels fair" - Triple puncture. On horridon, triple puncture, especially after a double swipe, is always paired with a melee attack. Warriors: mitigate both abilities with a block, or completely absorb one with a barrier. Paladins: SoTR to prevent up to 60% of the damage of each. DK: Deathstrike during the double swipe to build up a shield to absorb one of them. Monk: stagger both of them, maybe a guard on top of that. Druid: a.) hope tooth and claw is up and apply it, or b.) if it's not up, savage defense and hope you dodge the melee. Normally, averaged over a long period of time, druids will only take marginally more damage than other tanks from this triple puncture + melee burst, but it is an absolute fact that if every other tank class used their active mitigation, they will 100% survive triple puncture + melee, whereas Druids, perfectly played, will simply die X% of the time from it and there's nothing you can do. Sure, you can say "use barkskin, last stand, shieldwall, etc." to survive it, but those are limited resources and sometimes you have to tank long enough to exhaust all of those + all healer externals. What then?

That was actually the fairest example I could think of this tier. What about some unfair ones? Lets see - Tortos (Snapping Bite). Druids are the only tanks in the game, who when played perfectly, cannot guarantee that they aren't put into bat hp leech range after a snapping bite. Ji-kun (talon rake) - this is even more unfair, not only does this ignore armor but you can't even dodge it. On heroic 25m, I'm actually scratching my head on how the hell I'm supposed to survive the 4th stack of talon rake (it happens) when I'll need to bring my druid in for alt raids. On one of our progression attempts, the other tank died and I literally solo-cooldowned up to 7 stacks on my monk, with the possibility of taking 2 more before I was completely out of tricks. A 7 stack talon rake does almost 3 million damage. How many 1-3 million attacks can a druid take, spaced 20 seconds apart? Then we come across Hard Glare from Durumu, which is again undodgeable so it negates savage defense, and on top of that reduces healing to spite frenzied regen as well. Or how about massive slam on dark animus? Tell me how a guardian can be expected to take a string of 400-600-800 explosive slams every 1.5 minutes at minimum and live through 4 minutes of phase 2 burn?

This isn't just restricted to that "top 1-2%" that was mentioned earlier either. An enraged Horridon can and will 1-round a guardian with a triple puncture + melee even on 10 normal. What about all those normal guilds stuck on that fight? Every raid with a non-guardian tank can use her to solo-tank Tortos for a boost in dps. If you have a guardian tank? Well, it's doable if your tank is significantly more skilled than the encounter requires, but how is that fair? Ji-kun? Monks can solo tank that in normal mode, no problem. Druids? hah, you're screwed if your offtank dies at 30%. The list goes on, but theme remains the same: druids aren't as heroic as any of the other tanks.

And while they bring good utility to a 10man, in a 25m setting the guardian doesn't really bring anything useful to the raid. Roars are covered, there's three other offspec tranqs and two offspec h-tides, of course there's 7 battle rezzes, and there's five other toons capable of providing a permanent 5% crit that doesn't go away when you cast. On the other hand, there's nothing that they bring which compares to a warrior's crit/mocking banner and shattering throw, or a paladin's battle healer/hand of protection/salvation/sacrifice, or a monk's raid-guards and avert harm.

TLDR: A guardian is the only tank, that when played perfectly, lives and dies at the hands of the RNG gods with very little utility. That is unacceptable from a high-end progression PoV so I ditched the bear and picked up the beer.

Ostensibly, I really don't know where else to go from there. He hit all the high and low points, and outlined perfectly why I felt the need to try something different the past two weeks to see if it would hurt us in the long run or maybe, hopefully, do us some good. I've never had an issue doing things like this to help the guild progress because I feel good when we do so and I like expanding my horizons in this game. I like to think most of you know I don't generally do things that affect the guild lightly, particularly roster and logistical issues, and that includes shit like this. I don't care what I play, I just like to play. I pitch fits and yell and whine, but all of that is done in an effort to drive us forward and comes from my experiences with such successful motivation in the past.

I've invested a great deal of effort to keep the group going, and my payout has been fairly minimal, but I don't want anyone to look at this situation like that. My ultimate payout is in seeing our tag at the top of the list on SH wowprogress or whatever, and us having a great deal of fun overcoming challenges together. However, I don't like wasting people's time and effort by shitting on an entire gearset worth of drops, some very valuable items, and then rekitting an entire character only for it to ruffle feathers or not do us substantial good in the long run. Long story short, I don't lead a raiding guild to sit on the sidelines while one of our melee dps swaps specs and does better at my job than I could, through no real fault of my own. I have always been willing to do anything it took, be it leveling a DK -solely- for the sake of kiting flowers on H-Conclave, or switching to moonkin despite knowing nothing about the spec in T11 because ret was so utterly anemic at the time, to make sure I was earning my fucking raid slot. At the end of the day, I like to think I have more to prove to all of you every day than you have to prove to me, and while this change, hopefully a temporary one if they can manage to fix the bear/absorb/other mechanical issues outlined above, was a difficult one to make I think it will do us, and thus me, good in the long run.

I love having raid utility, and I love being able to live through mechanics in far worse gear that utterly destroyed my bear in relatively incredible gear. Hopefully that helps lead us toward progress, but everyone has to do their part as well. Part of the reason I was able to gear up Water so quickly is because we barely need anything from normals anymore. Rare TF stuff not withstanding, and even accounting for that, we need to up our level of play because what we have is -more- than sufficient to meet the challenges we are brick walling on right now. We'll be further addressing this in the coming days/weeks, but everyone needs to do everything they can to make our force stronger as a whole. I temporarily shelved a character I fucking love TWICE now due to needs of the raid, and with very few exceptions all of the DPS classes can at the least be within 15% of each other on any given fight. As much as I joke about it I don't want the whole raid to consist of warlocks/mages/rogues/DKs, but what I do ask of you guys is to learn your shit and play your specs properly. Learn the fights, practice if you have to... we certainly don't raid so much that it precludes you from doing this kind of stuff in your offtime.

We have great potential here, and we have the gear and depth to fuck some ToT ass up, but we need to up our game. If anyone has suggestions on how to accomplish this goal, I'm wide open to suggestions. My solution to my own problem has worked out very well so far, and I wouldn't have stuck with it if it hadn't. Let's keep the ball rolling and push for consistent improvement every single hour, every single night, every single lockout we play together.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: EtanMoonstar on 05/10/13, 07:50 PM
Dayum, I hadn't fully realized the extent to which Blizzard screwed you bears over in this tier. Great post, thanks!
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Zonty on 05/11/13, 02:02 AM
TL:DR Radz is swapping to warrior, no one would have said no anyways.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Criph on 05/11/13, 06:41 PM
Succinct.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Zonty on 05/11/13, 11:05 PM
Seems like he could have saved a lot of typing by just saying in mumble during a raid "Hey by the way starting now I'm going to be tanking on my warrior. End of announcement"

Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: ThermQT on 05/11/13, 11:11 PM
Naw, should have been, Guys, I either need to reroll warrior, which means gotta feed it gear, or therm can be the main tank, the fuck you people want...Thought so. xD
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Criph on 05/12/13, 01:22 AM
The threat of promoting Therm has kept this guild together since Wrath.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Spacejam on 05/12/13, 02:00 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/Yd2VTwb.gif)
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: EtanMoonstar on 05/12/13, 02:20 AM
Oh, and speaking to the last paragraph of Rad's post (and undoubtedly preaching to the choir here): it would be nice if every single person who wants to raid would actually read the forums (at the very LEAST once a week before Tuesday's raid, if not daily).
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Nechahira on 05/12/13, 03:07 AM
Oh, and speaking to the last paragraph of Rad's post (and undoubtedly preaching to the choir here): it would be nice if every single person who wants to raid would actually read the forums (at the very LEAST once a week before Tuesday's raid, if not daily).

That's kinda like you standing in front of your class and saying, "Everyone who's not here should be here.". :p
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Altair on 05/12/13, 01:08 PM
That's kinda like you standing in front of your class and saying, "Everyone who's not here should be here.". :p

Actually it's more like 75% of his students signing up for his course, then doing nothing but jerking off in front of a music stand for the entire semester, while the remaining 25% who give a shit want to drop the class.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Xanaded on 05/12/13, 01:14 PM
So can we start the change water's name fund now? Along with think of all the gear we could de for spirits if everyone was a mage lock dk rogue monk or pally.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Zebrix on 05/12/13, 02:30 PM
Quote
it would be nice if every single person who wants to raid would actually read the forums
At this point, anyone who's reading the forums less frequently than me should probably re-evaluate their daily internet routine.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Spacejam on 05/12/13, 03:25 PM
Actually it's more like 75% of his students signing up for his course, then doing nothing but jerking off in front of a music stand for the entire semester, while the remaining 25% who give a shit want to drop the class.

lol'd
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Radzeal on 05/12/13, 07:25 PM
but I like her name :(
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Nechahira on 05/12/13, 08:13 PM
but I like her name :(

We all missed the real story here, Rad had a sex change.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: EtanMoonstar on 05/12/13, 08:30 PM
Actually it's more like 75% of his students signing up for his course, then doing nothing but jerking off in front of a music stand for the entire semester, while the remaining 25% who give a shit want to drop the class.

Best analogy ever.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Criph on 05/13/13, 12:09 AM
All this and I'm a dropout.  Great.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: ThermQT on 05/13/13, 04:04 AM
this is really random, and I dont wanna derail Rad's great thread, nor do I think what im about to post needs its on thread, but I find it neat

When we did our server first level group grind, we've kept that skype convo very alive ever since then, and sweaty randomly was wondering when did we make this skype convo group, so I went all the way back in and found something Torki had randomly made out of boredom. Posted 10/22/2012
(http://i.imgur.com/u9FCu.png)
Look at that, our roaster from launch.
Ahjara, Chursen, Sweaty, Ckaster, Leg, Sisni, Lemain, Zeb, Karz, Bronxx, Murathe, Nixorrell, Ouic, Solk, Syhn, Torkei, Chi, Xanuri, Zonty. All of these people for one reason or another is no longer in our current raid roaster.
This blew my mind

again, Rad, sorry if this derails your thread a bit, if it should have its own thread Criph can just move it. Id figure you would get a kick out of this
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Zonty on 05/13/13, 05:07 AM
I have been promoted from backup to extreme backup
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Spacejam on 05/13/13, 05:53 AM
Sounds prestigious.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Radzeal on 05/13/13, 11:09 AM
Ha, that roster still blows my mind. People dropped like flies this expansion for one reason or another.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Altair on 05/13/13, 12:21 PM
I thought Nix made that.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Radzeal on 05/13/13, 01:33 PM
Nix made the original, I think people may have tweaked it after the fact.
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: ThermQT on 05/13/13, 03:32 PM
ah, I don't remember what I did yesterday let alone someones work from months ago, Credit goes to nix :p
Title: Re: It's been a long time
Post by: Stormaker on 12/28/16, 08:08 PM
Too bad you weren't around to be a bear this time, Radz. They've the best meat shield by far. They're getting nerfed in the coming patch, and they're probably still gonna be the best.